Let's Embark On An Entrepreneurial Odyssey With Braden Pollock | Saw.com

Speaker 1: 0:00

Joining us today on the Comfortable Podcast is Braden Pollock. Braden and I have known each other for almost 15 years.

Speaker 2: 0:06

And you know I've been to my fair share of shows in my tenure, but I honestly cannot think of a single conference.

Speaker 1: 0:11

I've been at that. He hasn't been and after talking to him, I think he's been to probably over 50. And when he's there, he's usually found on stage participating and helping others, and you know what? We need a lot more people like him.

Speaker 2: 0:27

He's one of those people that, when you look at him, you think to yourself.

Speaker 1: 0:29

He was probably born as a CEO wearing a suit or as an investor, and you know what I knew about his successful legal related businesses and also a lot about his other different investments in the domain industry and also, let's not forget about having one of the world's best domain portfolios. But I never really knew his story, how he made his way and his commitment to charity and helping others.

Speaker 2: 0:54

And today you get to hear it and with his success, Braden has moved on to become an avid investor.

Speaker 1: 1:01

We get to hear what Braden looks for in a company, in a management team, what he likes to invest in businesses. He has invested in wins, losses and everything in between.

Speaker 2: 1:11

So pull up a chair.

Speaker 1: 1:12

This is a good one and have a listen.

Speaker 1: 1:14

And again thanks for listening. We appreciate it. Today on the Uncomfortable podcast, we have Braden Pollock. Braden is a well-known domain investor, angel investor and serial entrepreneur. Among his companies is legal brand marketing, which provides lead generation services to lawyers nationwide. As an angel investor, he has an equity interest in several dozen other companies, including Catalyst, innovation Collective, ibeauty Brands, the grooming networks, which include straightraiserscom, beardcom, classicshavingcom and many others, as well as bold metrics, data zoom, tastry, next Health, osano Stiku and many others. He also was a domain investor as well and has thousands or tens of thousands of domains, and his focus is on premiumonewordcom. Braden's latest venture is the Pollock fund, focused entirely on investments and alternative asset classes.

Speaker 1: 2:16

We're certainly going to talk about that and he also serves on several boards, including the non-profit Internet Commerce Association, and I also saw another one called Benevolent. Yeah, so he's also a staple at most industry events around the world. I was looking at your website. How many how many websites, I mean? How many industry events do you think you've attended? I've seen a list on your websites. Had it been a hundred at this?

Speaker 2: 2:42

point. Yeah, I mean we're talking about 18 years probably, and I go to all of them at this point. I probably go to five or six a year, and then, if you add the I can't events even more so yeah, so that's I remember.

Speaker 1: 3:00

I met you in the Bahamas in 2012. We were both shirtless. We were both shirtless on a camera. How do you like that?

Speaker 2: 3:09

And we were holding hands as well.

Speaker 1: 3:11

We were. Yeah, you do have nice hands, if I remember correctly. So, braden, you know, obviously I've known you from around many of the events in the industry and many other people do as well, and from what I remember from talking to you, your story really starts with legal brand marketing. But I'd like to hear a little bit before that and how you built that business up that you sold for a lot of money, and then we can get into some of your newer endeavors in the show and maybe talk some domains after.

Speaker 2: 3:38

Okay. Yeah, so legal brand marketing actually I still have, and we just celebrated 20 years last month I flew everybody out. We went to a retreat in San Diego and for three days. I think that's pretty cool, Getting everybody together in one place, what I did sell. I think you're referring to Smart Start, which was yes, I'm sorry.

Speaker 2: 4:04

My business. I sold that some six, eight years ago, something like that. So how did I get my start? So before before those businesses, I've always been a material entrepreneur. I always had projects. I mean, even in grade school I was doing stuff.

Speaker 1: 4:23

No, so where did you grow up? Los Angeles, in LA. And when you're in grade school, you're mowing lawns or, you like, selling shoes. What were you doing?

Speaker 2: 4:31

I was mowing lawns. I go to door to door, just like hey, what are you done? And I would. I bring literally eraser caps and and job breakers to school and sell them to my friends. Why kids would want to buy an eraser cap, I have no idea, but I sold them and then it turned into other things. I started a vending business when I was about 23, maybe.

Speaker 1: 5:02

So you graduated college and then you thought you're going to do like candy machines and I was started that.

Speaker 2: 5:08

Yeah, that was after I didn't finish college. I went three years and then got bored so I had this vending business which is around. Actually I ran it for years and then I gave it to my dad and he ran it for a long time until he passed away, and then I took it back, cleaned it up a bit and then give it to my sister, and so my sister and her husband still run it to this day. Oh wow.

Speaker 1: 5:31

Yeah, almost 30 years later. So would you go and and empty the machines and the bags of quarters and the dollar bills and all those things and I did that until I hired someone to do it for me. Yeah, got it.

Speaker 2: 5:46

Wow, that was probably my first like business business. That wasn't just a project. So I had a lot of projects, yeah, I did that for a while and then I started a credit reporting agency and an immigration services business. I made pretty good money in the immigration business, learned a lot from that and and at that point I had a big staff and then after 9, 11, that kind of took a nosedive. So I parlayed the, the office and the infrastructure and the staff that had into this, building a website for DUI lawyers, and that turned into ultimately turned into legal brand marketing, which is all areas of law. Now we're actually starting to get into non legal areas. And then from legal brand marketing sprung the interlock business that that I mentioned and I printed a magazine. I had a book distribution business, did a bunch of stuff.

Speaker 1: 6:51

So when you talk about interlocks, that is, when someone gets a DUI or an OUI when they caught drinking and driving, and then when they go to start their car they have to blow into the tube to start the car right and it's mandated by whatever judge when you get your DUI. That person has to pay for it and they put in the car. Yeah, so it depends on the state.

Speaker 2: 7:14

So either it's the court or it's the DMV that requires it different laws in different states. I had I had shops in six states. I had 200 stores and and then I had because I had already been, I was already in the domain space. At that point I bought ignitioninterlockcom and and interlockcom, interlockscom, california, you name it. I had several hundred domain names and all pointing to the very site I think I think I had. I think I had seven sites. I had one for each state and then I had ignitioninterlockcom built out and the ignition interlock was kind of a general nationwide directory so those leads would go to other providers. And then when I ultimately sold that company, I actually got more for the company because they wanted ignitioninterlockcom, because I tried not to include that site in the portfolio.

Speaker 2: 8:13

I said well, that's part of another company and I said yeah, no, no, no, no, that that's included and I said well, no, it's not because you're buying this company over here and those domains are owned by you know another company. And they're like, we're not playing that game.

Speaker 1: 8:27

So I didn't have a choice.

Speaker 2: 8:29

I had to sell it off, but it helped me sell the company.

Speaker 1: 8:35

So when the you know in the ignitioninterlock business you know some poor person or somebody makes a mistake and drinks too much, gets caught, has to get that put in their car and then they get found guilty and told they got to put it in there, isn't it one of those things that the DMVs like here are some vendors and wouldn't? I'm guessing, like when you got into it, most people just paid the DMV to get on that list or paid in some way to be on that approval Because it's a massive undertaking to become a certified provider for that state.

Speaker 2: 9:05

Some states is a sole provider. I think Floor was sole provider. There was only one approved provider, so there wasn't that many. You know there's maybe a half a dozen providers and we were the biggest and most well known, and so you know. So we're marketing to the lawyers and we're marketing to directly to people that got in DUI. So we're doing all this marketing anybody that would recommend us. So we just wanted to be top of mind.

Speaker 1: 9:35

I'm going to get a.

Speaker 2: 9:35

DUI. The next day they get mails from us.

Speaker 1: 9:39

Yeah, I got it and that makes sense. I was thinking like, are you really going to shop around for one of those? You just kind of stuck like going, you know just having to get one. You know it's like, okay, that guy's closest to my house, I'm stuck with it. I guess I got to go pay the guy the thousand bucks or whatever to put it in. And yeah, well, it was a monthly, it was the least it was about between $75 a month.

Speaker 2: 10:00

But you know we even market to judges directly and judges were not supposed to tell the people what company to go with. They just have to go get an admission interlock and the clerk will give you a list of providers. But sometimes the judge would say go get a smart start, and that was because we had good technology and good reporting and stuff like that the judges wanted Okay.

Speaker 1: 10:28

So how did that come across your desk, that that opportunity came along and you got yourself involved with this, because it's a pretty obscure business, same with really credit reporting. I mean, it's a part of life but you just don't really think about. You know how big it is and just kind of stumbling into that. I know you said you're doing the DUI lawyer website right For some reason. Is that what got you into it?

Speaker 2: 10:50

That's. That's what got me into it. Yeah, because I was writing content for the website early on and I was reading about all this legislation that was coming from various states. But you can share a lot and I so I was writing about it and I thought well, this is probably a good industry to get into, because all this legislation is being introduced to acquire it.

Speaker 1: 11:14

So, after looking into it, you know, one thing led to another and I started doing it, so got it and then, and then you started doing it and it really took off. When did you say to yourself I really have something good going on here.

Speaker 2: 11:32

You know I well. I mean I started in California and it was doing well, and then we expanded to Oregon and then we expanded to East Coast. I just you know, keep opening more and more shops as we saw demand.

Speaker 1: 11:45

So when you open a shop, are you calling like a mechanic and you're like, hey, try this out, you can make an extra X of dollars a month on this guy and put it in and we'll give you a piece of noise.

Speaker 2: 11:54

Sometimes it was a lube and tune, Sometimes it was a a tent shop, Sometimes it was our own corporate store. So it was kind of a variety. It just depended on you know the area and what the demand was.

Speaker 1: 12:07

Yeah, and then did you just show up to check on some of these locations and make sure they're doing what they're supposed to do, or was it just kind of you know, we'll ship them to you and the money comes in and everybody's happy, and you get them back and they're broken or stuff like that? I mean, how does that work?

Speaker 2: 12:23

I never, I never, personally, I never checked on them. I mean I, I mean there was, I had a whole team, right. So I mean at that point there was, there was a whole whole staff. Yeah, you know, we had, we had a dedicated team just opening shops. So, personally, I never, I never went to a shop.

Speaker 1: 12:41

You never did. That's funny. You never had anywhere, like never answered the phone after you sent them a bunch of machines and like stoned from you or anything like that. I mean, I just feel like there's a lot of things that go wrong in this business, you know.

Speaker 2: 12:53

Yeah, I never. I don't know. I mean, I had a president of that company. I never. So when I, when I initially bought the license to do it, I hired somebody, I hired a president of the company and I was like you know go build a team and Did so. I mean, he checked in with me a lot, but I wasn't involved in any the day-to-day I.

Speaker 2: 13:19

Got you, I understand so I think, coming for 11 years, and never and never was involved in day-to-day. That's why I never went to. I there was only. There was only one shop that I visited, and that was because it was in a building that I owned, so I'd go to that, okay, okay.

Speaker 1: 13:37

So then you were probably more or less working on the nationwide strategy of just trying to expand to as many stores as possible and and trying to get it supplied to be able to do that. Right, say that again, like you, like you were, your daily work on that Project or at that company was really looking at the bigger scheme of things and saying how can we expand to 200 locations or 100 locations or 50 locations?

Speaker 2: 14:01

you know, step by step right the president company that that was his job.

Speaker 1: 14:05

Okay, got it. So then what did you do from there? You sold that, and what happened?

Speaker 2: 14:13

Nothing. I mean it's when I'm with my life. I mean I had, I had a number of businesses. I had a law firm at the time, I had my marketing company, I had a domain portfolio, I had real estate, I was angel investing. I mean I did a lot of things and so when it sold, I mean I don't want to say it was just another day, because you know.

Speaker 1: 14:36

I got made a lot of money from that.

Speaker 2: 14:37

It was a nice liquidity event, but you know, I it was. I went on with my life.

Speaker 1: 14:45

I didn't, I didn't, yeah, I didn't actually do anything I didn't.

Speaker 2: 14:48

I didn't buy anything. I didn't Spend money.

Speaker 1: 14:51

I didn't know, actually that's not true. I bought a house that I was gonna buy, yeah, but I but it was a fixer.

Speaker 2: 14:58

So I worked on the house for a few years and then told it but okay, so then.

Speaker 1: 15:02

So then, legal brand marketing and smart start the business were two totally different entities. Yeah, you pulled that off. And then obviously you, you put more energy or more or focus on growing the lead business. You said you're expanding it now into different.

Speaker 2: 15:16

I mean when I sold that I didn't put more energy in in in the lead business because I wasn't putting any of these into the interlocked business.

Speaker 1: 15:27

Yeah, you know, so it wasn't, really wasn't an issue the last 20, almost 20 years I've been involved in law firms and you involved in it as much as you were as the interlocked business, or is that something you're involved in a lot more?

Speaker 2: 15:43

No, I was involved. That a lot more.

Speaker 1: 15:46

Yeah, and so now that you know you've kind of cleared the law firm from your plate and this from your plate. What are you doing now? Like what's a normal day for you, because you're involved in 20 back then or now we're back then, even now, like going to you know it's like you know, kind of it's pretty close in timing.

Speaker 2: 16:06

Well, no, this is you, I mean I sold it, the Law firm I got, I don't know, maybe 12 or 13 years ago, so that's been a while, oh, wow, yeah, so I got out of the law firm and then and I sold the interlocked business maybe eight years ago okay and you know the the domain business continued to grow. I continue to get more and more involved in in domains and buy them. You know that I had one point I had about 15,000 names Because I was building out websites.

Speaker 1: 16:46

For you doing that with Rob monster right for a period of time. Yeah, it was actually prior to Rob. It was with okay web sir and Deverech and yeah why are Deverech?

Speaker 2: 16:56

and then and then I was involved with with epic.

Speaker 1: 17:01

Okay, and then Luke also is. I'm guessing, because I I've only met him in total passing, but I see him on Facebook and he always writes about his Shaving business and I'm guessing that's what led you to the to the beard, calm and other shaving business.

Speaker 2: 17:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I invested in that, so I'm a 35%. Okay, so minority. So he runs it and we've got a we. That's a roll-up. We. We purchased a bunch of related businesses soap factory and, and, and competing websites and small manufacturers and that's where I think.

Speaker 1: 17:36

And do you think that was a great investment? No, no, I would think that you're getting people on like for me. Personally, I've been using the same razor for 10 years and buying the same shaving cream like I'm happy with it. I don't really. I would think once I kind of pick, I don't really change, probably pre pre consistent business.

Speaker 2: 17:53

So they call that wet shaving, like safety razors and straight razors, as opposed to dry shakers shavers. And it was really hot for a while, beard oil and all that. Yep and and it did well for for a while and, and you know trends change and that one just went in a different direction. So so a lot of companies that got big. You know, like you know, the Harry's of the world and those like they dollar-shaped club.

Speaker 1: 18:20

That got huge and it's sold for massive money.

Speaker 2: 18:22

Yeah, and then, and then fizzled.

Speaker 1: 18:25

Yeah, I don't see the ads anymore, but that guy had that one funny ad everybody watched and then it kind of died.

Speaker 2: 18:30

So that's what made that company, but yeah yeah, you know, and and Harry's and you know, a lot of these companies have just they sold out, but it just that industry has changed and so, unfortunately, that affected us negatively but it's still around we're still selling, we still have a factory and still make us up. Okay, it's not, it's not fantastic. You certainly. Nothing compares to domains.

Speaker 1: 18:54

Yeah, and I mean I when you were, when you were building the sites. It was kind of like when Livestrong was big and there's a big traffic, farms and it was like eHow I remember you were building, taking names and trying to make automated websites With content for people to do something other than parking. Yeah, it was all right, it was out of development, you're right. So these, these, these, out of develop sites were great until until they weren't.

Speaker 2: 19:19

You know they were right. They're all ranking, they're doing fantastic. I sold some because people would type in whatever that their term was.

Speaker 1: 19:27

You know, Tennessee ticket lawyer, Whatever and it would come up number one right, and so I would.

Speaker 2: 19:33

I would sell them the domain in the site that cost me very little to put together and Integrated, and all one day they're all gone from Google. And then I checked Yahoo and they were still in Yahoo. And then one day, I think you're- gonna be out by six months behind.

Speaker 1: 19:49

Yeah, so do you think now, with AI, if you had the same business plan and in the same idea, do you think you could pull it off, if you had the energy and the Want to do it, to be able to have AI write all the content?

Speaker 2: 20:03

We're doing it actually and it does work. But if you just have chat GPT write the article for you, then it creates conclusions and does stuff that makes it look like it's AI written and and you'll get hammered by Google. But if you go in, you can pull out that stuff and and tweak it a little bit so it doesn't look AI written and it's fine, and Google is okay with AI written content, by the way.

Speaker 1: 20:31

It's if you look, you know at their developer terms.

Speaker 2: 20:35

They allow it. It just can't be shitty content like anything else.

Speaker 1: 20:41

Yeah, I mean I've, I've gone on it to see myself how good is it at telling you like what makes a domain valuable and ask like basic industry questions, and I think it does a pretty good job. I kind of find that chat GPT is relatively long-winded in their answers, get a little too excited about certain things, you know, and I also look at it and say, okay, here's the article, but then you need to put in another like half an hour into it to optimize it and get it to where it needs To be, and sometimes by the end of it you say to yourself I could have just wrote this faster, you know, because it does require a decent amount of work. But I'm guessing that you're training models to do much better than just me sitting here fiddling with it.

Speaker 2: 21:19

You know, over time yeah, so you fiddle it with a crap an hour, but you can create automation.

Speaker 1: 21:29

Yeah, I've created my own little bot that I've put in a lot of different information about the industry. I've put in sales, I put in a lot of different data, you know. So, yeah, I mean, I'm he's, he's pretty good, but again, his answers are usually pretty long-winded. And then also, when I try to use the data to maybe mine different parts of data and get things out, he always sometimes comes to the conclusion of telling me that he can do it, but he can't do it based on the rules of chat, gpt. So it kind of gets frustrating after you spend all this time feeding it all these things and then it doesn't give you what you want back in the end. You know well.

Speaker 2: 22:05

I'm kind of a better bot.

Speaker 1: 22:08

I know I need to build a better bot or I need to lie to it. That's what some of my friends say you need to do. You mean better, liar right to it. So you are gonna resurrect it. What was the name of the company a long time ago? What were you calling it? I remember when I was at CEDO, you guys were doing it. What was it called the? Which the the when you guys are building the automated websites back but it's called average.

Speaker 1: 22:32

That's what it was called. I thought it was called something else. I don't know why.

Speaker 2: 22:34

I don't think so I mean it was acquired by Epic, and I don't know what Epic called it.

Speaker 1: 22:42

So you, and then that's how you ended up on the board of Epic because of that acquisition, is that was?

Speaker 2: 22:46

that because he was doing a roll up and I like what he was building, and so I invested in the company. Yeah, I put a bunch of dough in that company which is gone now.

Speaker 1: 23:00

Yeah, I mean, I've met Rob a few times. He's an eccentric person but he's certainly a visionary and a very intelligent man and I could certainly see him if he were to pull off all of those plans. He had a lot of the makings of something great. You know, and I kind of look at that and look at uniregistry in some ways that Frank kind of had a really good hand dealt to him as well, because he had the portfolio, he had the brokerage, he had the registrar and he had the extensions and the back end registry. So he had the, you know, the royal straight flush as well, and it was kind of sad to see it kind of get broken up and sold in different directions.

Speaker 2: 23:36

You know I was surprised that happened to.

Speaker 1: 23:40

Yeah, but you know, I think I think the thing is is that, yeah, it was, there were times that I was like we're, I think we're going to pull this off. You know, we had a CEO that was all in at doing it and was really excited about it and I think some of the things didn't turn out the way that were that was planned. And I think that, just like you know, stuff happens, market changes, you know things change in life and and it just doesn't go that way, and sometimes getting the money makes sense to kind of change your mind, as you know right. I mean, you might have had big plans for your company and someone offers you the right amount of money and it's time to to walk away.

Speaker 2: 24:19

You know, but those are part of my big plans.

Speaker 1: 24:23

It could be it could have been part of Frank's too. I don't know.

Speaker 2: 24:26

I mean, I just need a lot of money and it's, they can have it.

Speaker 1: 24:28

Yeah, no, that's true. Like that's one thing that I'm realizing about you in this interview is you don't get too emotionally connected to any of your investments or any of the companies that you're running, is that?

Speaker 2: 24:39

no, no, no no, no no, everything is, everything is for my house is not in the market, but you offer me enough money. You know I'm going to show you real-time dog food. Take care of my dogs and I'll never come back.

Speaker 1: 24:50

I hear you, I hear you. No, I love them. So from. So we left off. You know I would kind of bounce around a little bit in your, in your life as an investor and in the industry a little bit. And now I'm looking at let's get closer to like today and I'm looking at, you know, 20 different companies or 10 different companies here, a bunch that I rattled off and others that you know we don't need to talk about today. How many business cards do you have? Oh, do you have a business card for every one of those companies you know? And what do you think about? I mean, if you have all these companies you're invested in, do you really know all these products and you tried them all? Do you understand them? All you know is it? Do you get that into it? So I have zero business cards.

Speaker 2: 25:32

I have a handful of companies that I own outright, A handful of companies that I own a significant minority share, Not the next oxymoron, but you know, if you own 20, 30% of a company you're a little bit more involved. Usually I'm a little Yep and then as an angel investor, you know I'm buying maybe 1% or 2% and I'm not involved at all and usually I've tried the product, I've played with it.

Speaker 2: 26:04

It's often times software, but you know but that goes for even pre-investing in something right, they're always going to send you a sample or give you access to the thing to play with it. Yeah, of course. So I've invested in roughly 40 companies. Some have exited, a couple have failed, so right now it's 30, some odd. Some are very small stakes and some are significant stakes. Some I'm on the board of, some I'm an advisor of, and then, of course, I've got my own company. So the you know if it's a board meeting.

Speaker 2: 26:44

I was in a board meeting yesterday for three hours. I had an occasional board meetings Every month. Hopefully, I get an update from that company. So I read a lot of updates and I read a lot of pitch decks from companies that are raising money. That's endless, Yep. So, and I honestly don't spend as much time looking for new companies to invest in. I'm typically doing follow on rounds that the company's doing well, because I have the right to maintain it's called pro-rata rights. It's something I asked for when I first get involved with the company and pro-rata rights simply means that I can continue to invest to maintain that equity percentage level.

Speaker 1: 27:31

So okay, so they can't dilute you, or.

Speaker 2: 27:35

Well, I get diluted and that's why I have to put in more money to maintain that yeah.

Speaker 1: 27:40

So let's say, I own 1% because I put in it's called $100,000 when it was a $10 million dollar valuation. But then they're a $20 million valuation.

Speaker 2: 27:49

I don't have 1% anymore, unless I contribute more money, and let's just call it another 100 of that. It's not math, is not that simple. But let's call another 100,000 to maintain that 1%.

Speaker 1: 28:02

Okay, right.

Speaker 2: 28:03

Because the venture capitalist guys come around and they want to take the whole round sometimes, but I have the right to put in no more than what will keep my equity percentage position, got it? So we'll typically do those, maybe once or twice a year. I'll do a new, I'll invest in a new company because of there's extended circumstances where it's a great deal and I have the opportunity to get in. But otherwise I'm focused on running my companies and one, wordcoms, which I'm actively buying.

Speaker 1: 28:40

When you invest in a company, so it sounds like you get in a little later than most. I was going to talk to you about how you put evaluation on it's fair.

Speaker 2: 28:50

No, I don't get in very early.

Speaker 1: 28:52

So I'm getting very early. So what do you do to a person? Let's pretend I have an axe throwing business and I want to open it up in different malls across America and I have a whole business plan. It looks cool and exciting. This is something I can get behind and I'm telling you my projections are saying that in three years we're going to be doing $10 million a year in profit. And you're like I know real estate. That's probably not going to happen. That's a lot of axe throwing, but I think three is probably would be a win. And how would you come to a reasonable evaluation with these entrepreneurs? How do you do it?

Speaker 2: 29:27

It's funny that you asked that question because just this morning I was helping a company with their pitch deck and they had this slide called financials. It was blank and they said we want to put in projections, so we need help on how to put those together. And I said, as an investor, I normally don't give much weight to your projections, to projections when it's pre-product, because it's just playing this guy. I told them what do you mean? I said well, what are you going to? You're just going to guess like you're going to have 2% market share, right, and do that math based on the total addressable market. And it's total nonsense, it's not based on anything.

Speaker 2: 30:02

It's what would be more substantial and be more meaningful to you. And I said, well, if you first of all, you can't do it because you're pre-product. But if you had a product and you said we're in, we've pitched this many people, or in discussions with this many people, this many people, buyers have asked for a demo.

Speaker 2: 30:21

We're in contract with this many buyers. I said that shows something right. And then, if you've had sales, we're in this many stores and this is the sales, and they've been, they've been growing over the last 12 months, 12 months at this pace. So then you convert, you have something, you have a basis to make projections upon, but right now you have no basis to make any kind of projections. You just make it up. I said, and you will always make it up, in a way that's extremely favorable. Everybody thinks that they're going to do 100,000 this year and in two years they're going to be doing like 25 million. And it just doesn't. It usually doesn't work that way, right? No?

Speaker 1: 31:02

So I just don't give it a lot of credence and then, in reality, in the plan to get there is never the plan in the end. When you look back at it, well, it just totally usually turns to dust in some way, not in a bad way, necessarily, it's just you learn as you go and things change and you learn Well, especially what.

Speaker 2: 31:20

I'm looking at which is really early in the company lifecycle right, I'm looking at C stage, and so a lot of it is guesswork. Now, if you're looking at an A round or a B round or a C round, so these rounds that are eight years later, right, you're looking at a D round, I think companies have been around a long time. There's traction, there's product market fit, they have all of these things, they have historical data and so they can say this is where we are and we see an opportunity here and we need X number of dollars to hire the staff and do this marketing, run these campaigns, launch this product, et cetera, et cetera. And then it'll take us here and this is our projection. But it's not pining the sky because it's based on all these things I've been doing.

Speaker 2: 32:02

Right, but when you're getting in a C round and it's like a brand new product or just an idea and it's a pre-product. Then I'm investing really in the founder and what?

Speaker 1: 32:14

I'm doing is what I was going to ask next. And then, what do you look for in a founder and how much they're investing? I always feel like that's really. The first question is how much money have you put in yourself? What are you putting in this? Is this your only venture? Is this everything to you, or is this just a side thing for you?

Speaker 2: 32:30

Yeah, I mean, you do want it to be everything to them. You want them to be hungry. You want to have a co-founder right, so if they burn out for whatever reason, they decided to go, get married and moved to Tahiti, anything can happen. You want a co-founder that can help.

Speaker 2: 32:47

It's better because you don't really want to put all your eggs in one basket. You'd rather there's two people there. I'm looking for somebody that's gone through an accelerator, because if it's just a dude that's got an idea, even if he's a good developer, then my god, okay, but you can develop the thing. But do you know how to raise money? Do you know how to take it to market? Do you have resources? If you're not, from that industry, what do you have? So I'm looking for somebody that has gone through an accelerator, that has training and that has someone that can help them.

Speaker 2: 33:18

If somebody has done a crowdfunding, for example, I don't invest in somebody that's crowdfunding. Why not? Because what they've done is they've raised $25, $100 from hundreds of people and they can't go back to that well for more money, because that's not the model. Also, those people that invest that money can't help. So when you have angel investors, angel investors have different skill sets and typically want to help and they have resources and they help the company to push the board and help them succeed, and then, when the company needs more money, they can go back to that group. The people that are on their cap table go back to them for more money, and so if your money came from crowdfunding, no resources, no further investment, nothing that's done.

Speaker 1: 34:13

So it's not like you raise money. I mean, if all they need is money.

Speaker 2: 34:16

They don't need any resources, they don't need to go back and it's fine. But if they don't have real investors behind them and resources behind them, then that's not a company that I want to get involved in, got it.

Speaker 1: 34:31

And then to twist it around on you, let's say that an entrepreneur has the hot product and you're like, wow, this is going to be something like this is going to be really good, and you want to get in. What do you tell that entrepreneur? What you bring to the table?

Speaker 2: 34:45

I explain to them what my resources are, because I try to be what's called smart money. So dumb money is just a way to check. Smart money is somebody that can actually help, oftentimes an advisor, because I try to get involved with companies that I understand, products that I understand, so that I can be of service, and so that's what we talk about is what my resources are, beyond just money, and how I can help them.

Speaker 1: 35:14

Yeah, one of the things I've learned working with some venture capital firms is that when they invest in a company, they have departments that provide resources like anything from helping with email or recommend marketing companies or provide the marketing themselves or do anything legal advice, all kinds of different things to make sure that it's almost like a concierge service to help that company be successful. For sure, and I think that's what accelerators do right. It's all of those things.

Speaker 2: 35:43

And then when they bring in a VC, a VC is going to have all kinds of resources as well, including oh, you need help with this particular small niche thing in your business. Call this CEO whose company does only that thing and he's going to walk you through it. Or let me put you on the phone with this founder who had the exact same issue a few years ago and this is how he solved it. So those kinds of resources, just putting people together and that's something that I can do, because I've been an investor for so long that if I've got, I'm investing in 40 companies, there's 40 founders I can reach out to Right and, of course, there's more than that. I know other founders. I know people that have sold their companies and just you know, etc. Vcs and people that do have knowledge in the startup world that can help. So it's not necessarily what I know, it's who I know as well.

Speaker 1: 36:39

So when you invest in a company, when you're looking at it and you put your money in your hundred grand or million bucks whatever it is in the back of your mind, is every single one of them you saying to yourself I'm going to get an exit of 10 times, 20 times out of this, 100 times out of this. Is that really the ultimate goal? Or when you invest in some of these smaller companies, like a five or 10 person company, they're probably not going to get a big exit, but maybe they'll pay you a good dividend every year for perpetuity or until they retire, or something like that. No, how do you look? No, you can't just pay a dividend.

Speaker 2: 37:12

Listen, if you're raising from an angel or raising venture capital, you have to sell, Because that's the only thing. You have to get our money back out. That is the path it is. You build this company and sell it. Either you sell to the public right, you go public or you're selling it to some other company. But there has to be an exit so that I can get my money back.

Speaker 2: 37:35

But, if you open a restaurant and you just want to run this restaurant the rest of your life, I'm never going to invest in a restaurant.

Speaker 1: 37:40

Never well because.

Speaker 2: 37:41

I don't, I don't want, I don't want a job and I don't want, I don't want, you know, a monthly distribution. That's not, that's not my goal. I want to get a multiple on my investment. So take my money and in seven to ten years, sell your company for a hundred times what I put in, and then we're good right, that's okay, that's my goal, and that's most investors goal. Sometimes sometimes really is like if I get two X or three X, get out of the next round. They'll do that. Supermodels.

Speaker 1: 38:16

Or they making enough money and they just say we're gonna keep it private and not exit, and here's your money back with a return and you're like fine, I'll take it, or that doesn't usually happen, well that's, you know.

Speaker 2: 38:24

Pe firms do that. Pe firms will buy companies right, and then yeah they try to get economy to scale by buying companies that are. There's some, some what's the word? You put them together and they, they work well together roll a roll up or a roll up.

Speaker 1: 38:41

Merger.

Speaker 2: 38:42

Yeah, and then you know there's economies of scale and putting together, yep, and so they'll do that, and then they'll, they'll Take the, the, the, the distributions from that company for a while and then, because of the roll up and the kind of the scale, then the company will trade for a higher multiple and they'll sell off that, that large company that they're pieced together, the roll up it's. I mean, I solicit, there are. There are investors that that you know want to buy a bar and like get monthly distributions and go hang out at the bar and it's a lifestyle investment. That's not what I want. Yeah, right, yeah necessarily want to be that kind of ball. I want to be around for advice and to help and sometimes as a crunch period, there's a. There's a company I got involved in that had a shitty investor that wanted out. They got out. Another investor came in who was terrible. I helped push that investor out and he came in.

Speaker 2: 39:45

He was lying about all kinds of stuff, great. And then you know, like the all the the existing investors make sure they were cool. And we found a new feed investor and I work every day on that business for a while. But I got compensated. I got what's called advisory shares, so I got more equity in that company for working in.

Speaker 2: 40:04

Obviously didn't take any cash, I put more cash in as a matter of fact, and it was a rough patch and it was just kind of touch and go and the company survived. And you know, the last valuation was like $200 million, just over 200 million, and I was in it an 8 million valuation.

Speaker 1: 40:22

So that's you know, so that's a that's a pretty good or.

Speaker 2: 40:25

I mean, it's all on paper, right, um, and you know we'll see what happens, but I got a. I got a nice size chunk of that company.

Speaker 1: 40:35

And that's that's a great position to be in, and these are the deals you dream of, right, and this is why you're doing it. Yeah, well either 10 the project and work out this one's, you know, the pearl right or one of the better ones, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean if it pays.

Speaker 2: 40:46

If it pays, if it right, because right now it's just on paper. But if it's a 200 million valuation and some company comes along and buys them for $650 million and I got an 8 million right, it's going to be a great, great payday for me.

Speaker 1: 41:00

Yeah, it's a windfall. Do you think you'll do something that day? You think you'll celebrate that one in more than buying a house? Um?

Speaker 2: 41:10

Maybe it's possible.

Speaker 1: 41:14

Yeah, yeah, I have a question. I've asked some investors before. Like you in the past, would you ever invest in a competitor Of a company that you've invested in?

Speaker 2: 41:23

um. I have investing in feathers.

Speaker 1: 41:25

Yeah, so you've invested on both sides of the aisle and and if you're sitting in the board, do you ever get involved in the board? You're on both sides, or more involved, or is it more. Just like. This looks like a cool company. That looks like like two car rental places.

Speaker 2: 41:38

That look like yeah, I think there are synergies. That was the word I was trying to come up with a minute ago.

Speaker 1: 41:43

Um, Okay, there are synergies. I mean look.

Speaker 2: 41:46

I I get involved with competitors and work with them, because sometimes First of all you can't. You know, no man's an island. You know we need to work together in the industry and and it's it's our benefit. So it's easier to work with and against a competitor. And Whenever I approach a competitor to work with them and they don't have anything to do with me I find those companies don't last, because there's a certain mindset to when you don't want to work with anybody else because you think you're better and it just doesn't work.

Speaker 2: 42:21

Um, I agree with legal brand marketing you know, we, we work with all of our competitors and always have, and, um, some of those competitors I've ended up buying out. Some of those competitors have offered to buy my company. Um, and I mean it's just, it's like you know why? Why wouldn't? If you want to grow, why wouldn't you start by talking to your competitors? If you want to sell, why, when you start by talking to your competitors, right and yeah, having a relationship with them is better.

Speaker 2: 42:45

I have employees that used to work for competitors that eventually left and they want to keep doing what they're doing and they call me.

Speaker 1: 42:53

Yeah, and I, I do too, so I know I definitely I hear you Um look at, look at the domains.

Speaker 2: 42:59

Yeah, that makes the main space all the people that work in domain companies. They go from one to another right. No, nobody is this like the Roche Motel once you're in, nobody leaves the domain space.

Speaker 1: 43:09

They don't. It's like the mouth. You know we don't, we don't leave um. Have you ever invested in a company and you realize that the domain name that they're using is just dog shit and have you told them? You know, obviously that's your specialty and that you want to help them pick a new name or a better domain or an upgraded version of it? Have you, have you ever had that conversation with the founder and how was it received?

Speaker 2: 43:32

Um almost every time Really okay.

Speaker 1: 43:37

And how does that conversation go Um?

Speaker 2: 43:42

You know, typically they already know who I am and what my background is, and so, yeah, I I can't think of a time where they haven't taken that, that comment or that conversation seriously. I think they've all used me. They don't necessarily want to spend the money, or and sometimes I say you know like we're, we're b2b and this upgrades not that significant. It's not worth the, the, the cost and it's just yeah case sometimes.

Speaker 2: 44:12

But um, you mentioned, catalyst is on my investments and they were catalyst dot Fit or something. There were some some alternative extension and um, and then along the way I was able to. I. I saw catalyst dot co an auction. I picked it up for a few grand and I was like look what.

Speaker 2: 44:32

I got like great, I'll take it, and I just he just reimbursed me and um, and then the company was doing very, very well and and they had plenty of cash and I said it's time to go up to catalystcom. He's like you think we can get it I'm like well, we're gonna try and I got it. Um, you know, like everything has its price. Um, I actually got a pretty good price on it.

Speaker 1: 44:56

Um, did you see a lift in the business after you got the dot-com? Do you think it mattered, or was it more of like a confidence play in a I mean, I think it just. I'm sure it helped the traffic.

Speaker 2: 45:07

Um, I don't know. I mean, I never got involved with the With the metrics and the you know conversions on the traffic? I never asked. I mean, they were just so thrilled.

Speaker 1: 45:16

The CEO was just beside himself, so thrilled that I was able to get it because it had been years of no no, it stopped fit FIT. You know that kind of thing explain yeah yeah, explaining yourself at a bar when you're trying to close a deal, how does someone can email you or something and you have to keep saying it is a good thing?

Speaker 2: 45:34

There's a, there's another company I'm involved in and that needs the upgrade and I've been trying for years To get it. Uh, as a matter of fact, I followed up just this morning, quince then away, and they just don't want to though. Um, but I, I've done, I've done a bunch acquisitions for, for these companies I'm involved in because I can, and you know I'm not gonna charge for my services and just do it because it helps.

Speaker 1: 45:57

Yeah, of course. Yeah, I mean, that's part of being part of the team, right? That's one of the values that you bring. So let me ask you this yeah, you invest in a company. They've raised, you know, a few million dollars. Uh, they have a prototype. You know they have a run rate. And then how much? If you're you're having the conversation about a catalystcom with ak and what would be you would suggest to that company, like, what percentage of that cash should they spend within reason on the domain? Like what do you think it gets unreasonable and what do you think is a fair amount that Isn't reckless and that makes sense for the business?

Speaker 2: 46:31

I think I think up to 10 of the raise. I think it's well beyond that. It really comes down to Um. What's the company is it? Is it um? You know, d to C? Right? If it's D to C, you need a pretty strong name, right? They're?

Speaker 1: 46:48

gonna be out there.

Speaker 2: 46:49

Yeah, media like they need a good memorable name that's not gonna get screwed up with, the dash or an alternative extension or multi word, yeah, whatever, um, so you know, I, I would recommend, like pushing the budget for a very strong name on launch for something as D to C.

Speaker 2: 47:09

If they're only an amazon seller, it's not quite as important. If they're B2B, they can be on an AI or an IO or or some alternative extension. Um, because especially in the tech space, right, if they're in a tech space, then then you know, you've got kind of a savvy um client base. Um but you know, if you don't have a tech savvy client base, then you just need to be on dot com.

Speaker 2: 47:36

Right, I mean dot com is always going to be the best bet, but just depending on your market, you can go with something that's not quite as good potentially.

Speaker 1: 47:46

But of course it's going to raise the price of the dot com.

Speaker 2: 47:49

Right, or you may, or it'll get cobbled up by a company that's never going to sell it.

Speaker 1: 47:55

Yes, I mean that happens, or you, if you're at that stage, maybe you make a name change. I mean, it's that happens too right, well look.

Speaker 2: 48:00

I have to go do something, you know my marketing company's legal brand marketing, which you know I I picked before I understood domains 20 years ago and uh, roughly and um, you know I didn't. At one point we talked about upgrading to lbmcom, which is well we always call it lbm, because that's what everybody does.

Speaker 2: 48:23

Yeah, long three words, right, and do you? Yeah and um? Our logo is lbm and I could have bought. Lbmcom is brought to be a number of times and um, I think it was brought to me was about 30 grand, which today would be a good price. But then I was like you know, 30 or maybe it's 35 grand. I thought it's not going to improve business. It's just not Right because we're not out there getting people to remember our name necessarily. Um, and I decided against it, even though I was. I was steeped in the domain world to that point I decided it wasn't worth money because I wasn't going to get any more money for my company when I sold it, which happens.

Speaker 2: 49:07

Yeah, but whoever buys it's just going to roll it up into their larger company and they're not going to care about the name.

Speaker 1: 49:17

Got it. Um, what do you think? What do you think are the traits that you look for when you say I look at the management team when you make a decision. What are the traits that you look for in a CEO or co-founders, Like? What are certain very specific traits that you really pay attention to?

Speaker 2: 49:34

Uh well, they certainly have to understand the industry. Right that to be knowledge, yeah.

Speaker 1: 49:39

I don't want.

Speaker 2: 49:40

Well, I mean, look, look, there are myself include like I will start a business where I'm like here's a good idea, I'm gonna go hire some people and I'm not gonna do it myself, but I'm, you know, stuff I have no business getting involved in, I get involved in, but, um, I don't want somebody that just hasn't like I got this idea to do this thing. I'm like great Good luck to you, right, because I'm like, yeah, you to try to execute on this idea and you don't even have knowledge of that, that thing, like you just get. I know I have the idea I could take my money and go, you know, go launch that, that idea. And oh, and 100 of it, why am I gonna buy percent of it? Because you have the idea? No, I, if you are in that world and you have this idea, because You've discovered, you know, a gap in the marketplace and you have these resources and you could put these things together. That makes sense. Okay, well, that makes sense.

Speaker 2: 50:37

I agree with that industry knowledge and and hustle Right Like can they do it? Um, if it's software, obviously, I'm looking for somebody that's that's a developer as opposed to somebody.

Speaker 2: 50:50

That that Is well. I haven't. I haven't invested people that are not developers but they've been in that world Right. They've been the director of sales for the last seven years at this company and and they have all the developers and have everybody lined up and they know how to sell it Right because they've been doing it for a long time and they're going to just build a better mousetrap and go sell it and that and that's it Right. So so some sort of ideas that were domain, but some sort of domain knowledge.

Speaker 1: 51:23

And then what about like just normal character traits, that just somebody who doesn't give up, and they're a hustler and they believe in the product. And that's Really it, because you know we're investing founders, there's lots of ideas.

Speaker 2: 51:33

I mean, is there anything that's that's really that new? It happens right. I mean, there's pharmaceuticals and there's new inventions, and but most of the time it's not Brand new. Usually it's a. It's a thing that already exists out in the world, and the question is can this person do it better?

Speaker 1: 51:54

Yeah, and then do you actually want to meet them in person and like maybe go have a some dinner and drinks with them, or are you beyond that? You look at the paper, you might talk to them on a zoom, listen to their presentation, ask some questions and you're out the door with it.

Speaker 2: 52:05

I mean, we're having a perfectly good conversation right now.

Speaker 1: 52:08

We're not, you know, in person, right like you don't need to be no, I agree, no, I mean, but this isn't an interview for me to you know. If you're to invest inside our calm. This is for me to invest in legal brand marketing, right, no I?

Speaker 2: 52:21

um, like, if they're, if they're in LA, um, you know, I'll meet him for coffee. And sometimes they're close by and go like, hey, I'm gonna be in LA in a couple of weeks. I'm not in in rural Alabama. People come through LA, it's not that hard. So, yes, I, I will get to go people if they're making a trip out here, but usually not. Usually I'm reading the deck, I'm like I'm the person and they're in Montreal or where they're, wherever.

Speaker 1: 52:51

Yeah, I got it. I got it. So let's change the subject a little bit and let's talk a little bit about domains, unless there's anything else you wanna add to what we were just talking about. Okay, how do you think the rest of this year is gonna go with domain sales in general? Do you think it's gonna remain relatively robust, or do you think we're gonna go through a cold winter soon? What do you think's gonna happen?

Speaker 2: 53:13

Things have definitely picked up this year. I had a decent year last year and then, after the first January, inquiries started coming in. I've got, I think, five deals in negotiation right now. As a matter of fact, I think I might close one there tomorrow, I might close two there tomorrow, and I've had a good start to the year and some good sales this year. So when you see sales and you see inquiries pick up the big names, the six and seven figure names, as you well know, they take a while oftentimes, and so a bunch of those conversations are happening. Some are already at, we're agreed at the price and there's other terms that we're negotiating. So I'm not counting my chickens, but some of them look pretty good.

Speaker 2: 54:14

The question is, are we gonna continue seeing? Are rates gonna continue to drop? The economy's okay, credit is at all time high, or debt rather. So that bubble's gonna burst eventually and then we'll shit hit the fan. Probably to some degree it will. But you know, domains have always kind of weathered that storm and if the latter half of the year sales drop off because budget's tightened, it'll probably pick up again next year. I'm in this for a long call. I don't need to sell a domain to eat tonight. So I'm fortunate enough to be able to buy and hold, and that's my strategy. If somebody comes along and offers me twice what I paid for a domain, that's ridiculous. The rest of the world would be phenomenal. Imagine if you bought a house and somebody I'll pay twice what you paid for your house. It's like you won the lottery, but in the main world, like you're not offering me eight, 10, 20 times what I paid, forget it.

Speaker 1: 55:27

Yeah, but also you're also covering a lot of the other names. You spent a lot of money on that. You are never gonna sell and you thought were great and haven't gotten the nibbles that you've wanted to over the years, so that's been kind of dead.

Speaker 2: 55:39

I dabble in all different areas of domain investing, but my primary focus, 90% of what I do, is in onewordcoms and to sale and never sell them is a little bit different. I see those as the most liquid. They don't turn as fast but it's not like there's only one buyer out there. So I've got iconiccom, for example. Just picking one wordcom, iconiccom is never gonna go to, obviously not gonna go to business, and it will always have value. And if I have not sold it in 10 years and I want the liquidity, I can wholesale it. And I can probably wholesale it for two or three times or four times what I paid for it. And if it's a year later I can probably after about it. I could probably sell it for 10 or 20% above what I paid, right Just because it's been a year.

Speaker 2: 56:33

So those are liquid because I can always sell them on the wholesale market, and so that's very different than a big portfolio of the average like 25 to $3,500 name that there's one buyer out there.

Speaker 2: 56:51

You have enough of them, you'll sell enough to make money because you're getting a hundred X on them but, like you said, most of them, or many of them, will never sell, but it's. But this still pencils out. And my portfolio is different, much smaller portfolio, all of which have value, all of which I could sell. I'm turning down the offers that are twice what I paid because it's not enough, right? So that's a difference. So mine's much more creative right Than all the small name portfolio Small name.

Speaker 1: 57:26

And like an iconiccom. There is not just domain investors, but there's also people that are like you, who buy really cool names like that for hundreds of thousands of dollars and they're like actually don't have an idea for it. I just thought the name was cool and then I'm like I'm just gonna put it over here for some day that I might need it or a business that I invest in wants it. So I'm just gonna keep it over there and they'll pay $200,000, which is amazing, yeah.

Speaker 2: 57:49

And I've sold some names like that Mark.

Speaker 1: 57:53

Cuban. Everybody knows Mark Cuban, it's wild.

Speaker 2: 57:55

He buys names and he's like this is a great name. Well, maybe I'll use this someday.

Speaker 1: 58:01

Great.

Speaker 2: 58:02

I'm happy, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 58:06

You know, in our business we saw the fourth quarter was a little bit on the slower side from what it was from years before. It seemed that a lot of people kind of went on vacation earlier for Christmas, because I always found myself like working on a deal on Christmas Eve or having to work on something on like the day or two after trying to get it through before the end of the year, and it just wasn't that kind of action that a lot of the years in the past it had been, and I was a little concerned that going into the new year that would carry over and it didn't. In January did seem to be kind of a noticeable uptick in interest and offers and opportunities. And then in January was a pretty good month. It wasn't one for the history books, but then February this February has been pretty good. I mean, we've sold quite a few names and we have a lot of things cooking and brewing. You know you're absolutely right, so that's good. I mean, I think, talking to other people in the industry, they've said very similar things to you.

Speaker 1: 59:07

And the other thing that I've noticed is in times when I've been doing this since you know, 2010, and we've gone through times where it wasn't good in the economy, or war or other things like pandemics and yeah, things slow way down. But it always seemed like domains to me were robust, and they always have. When other areas of the market have really not done well, domains would go down, but then it would, for some reason, you know, the demand would come back up. Now the VC funding is way down compared to two, three years ago and I thought that that was going to have a major effect on opportunities for us and I felt like it kind of did. But now it's going.

Speaker 1: 59:50

It's not like it was in 2020 and 2021, but it's still a lot more robust. When I'm seeing that VC investment is down like 60% or 70% from the year before, that's alarming to me, you know, and I don't know if Bitcoin's helping that. I don't think it is, because I'm not talking to a lot of people that are investing in Bitcoin or not investing, but investing in crypto related or blockchain related companies, like I was a number of years ago, and I'm not talking to a lot of blockchain startups, like I was, that are looking to buy cool names either. So that doesn't seem to be propping up the market either. You know, at least on my side of the business. So when crypto is up, domain sales are up.

Speaker 1: 1:00:33

And because when it's up, I get offers in crypto.

Speaker 2: 1:00:38

I have a six figure sale right now pending and we're $15,000 apart. We're very, very close and it's a crypto sale and when crypto is up.

Speaker 2: 1:00:54

Last year same thing I had crypto sales. These guys are not in a bunch of value in their crypto portfolio and they want to diversify and they understand digital assets. So that happens. As far as VC funding, what's interesting is that funding might be down, but the VC's still have the money. So when the stock market goes down, people take their investment dollars out of the market and they put them in funds. So the VC's they're sitting on a ton of dry powder and it has to get deployed, because if they don't deploy it, they have to give it back. Well, I don't give it back because they want to earn their management fee, so they give it back. They don't earn money, so it's counter to what they're doing. So what they do is they sit on it and they just hammer the founders for better deals, and so we saw a lot of VC running dry up. But then it came around Because the money was there and then it got deployed.

Speaker 2: 1:02:04

When it got deployed, then it got deployed. Maybe these startups didn't do as much, or they?

Speaker 2: 1:02:11

got as much but they didn't get the valuation that they wanted. That's usually what happened. It just everybody took a haircut and then they can use it for whatever they need, for sometimes domains and whatever else. It just was a little bit of a lag, which is why in Q4, myself included I had one sale I was going to close at the end of the deal and it got pushed and it still hasn't happened, and another that did close right in a deal. I didn't get paid until after the first.

Speaker 1: 1:02:44

But otherwise it was a ghost town in Q4. Yeah, it was slower. I mean, I don't know if I'd call it a ghost town, but yeah, it definitely wasn't what it used to be. So yeah, so are you headed to Puerto Rico?

Speaker 2: 1:03:02

No, no. I'm going to Argentina for a wedding. That's a few days afterwards and I was going to try to go to Puerto Rico first and then Argentina, and it's just too much.

Speaker 1: 1:03:15

That's a lot of traveling.

Speaker 2: 1:03:17

I've been traveling a lot. I've been to something like nine countries in the last six months and it's a lot plus a lot of domestic stuff.

Speaker 1: 1:03:25

Yeah, I'm sure Did you go home, and have you been staying at home since the ICA or have you traveled other places since I'm trying to think? No, I think I've been home. You've been home. Are you going to go to the Nordic domain days? I think that's like in May? Yeah, you're going to go to.

Speaker 2: 1:03:44

Yeah, I'm supposed to speak Are you?

Speaker 1: 1:03:47

Do you think it's worth it? Do you think it's a good show?

Speaker 2: 1:03:49

I like the show. It's very registry operator focused and I talked to Lars last year about adding an investor track because there's plenty of people that would be happy to go to that conference. But when it's all registry stuff all of us don't care, so we don't go. But all he needs to do is add a few speakers and then it will bring the investor side. We'll see if that happens.

Speaker 1: 1:04:26

I sent Rob Watson, who works with me last year. He went and Dan Adamson, who I used to work with at Uniregistry, he was there as well. They were there last year. I think they went the year before as well and they thought it was a great, really good show on the domain side, but it was small and I think that they probably didn't go to the ICA event, but the way they talked about it sounded similar to ICA, where there wasn't a ton of people, but the people there were of good quality and really focused on, serious about what they're doing and led to good conversation, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 1:04:55

Yeah, it's just not investor focused, but there's no reason why it couldn't be.

Speaker 1: 1:05:02

Yeah, and then, if anyone's listened, I did a review of the ICA and I had a great show and Braden is on the board of the ICA and my question for you is will the ICA? The ICA is going to do the same show again in January next year, but are you going to add a second show, or is that something that is still being discussed or is not an option Still?

Speaker 2: 1:05:22

being discussed.

Speaker 1: 1:05:24

I'm pushing for it.

Speaker 2: 1:05:26

I would really like, yeah, we'll see.

Speaker 1: 1:05:32

Do you think, if they're going to do it, it would be in the US or in Vegas or somewhere else?

Speaker 2: 1:05:39

No, it'll probably be. It'll probably be in the US. I mean, I'm talking about East Coast, miami, new York, yeah, like that.

Speaker 1: 1:05:47

Yeah, just to mix it up and it'll be.

Speaker 2: 1:05:49

It'll be, you know, more expensive. It'll be a 12 or $1,500 ticket, that sort of thing.

Speaker 1: 1:05:55

So it'll be much smaller group. Yeah, miami, yeah If it. I always felt that and I would Go ahead if it happens when we.

Speaker 2: 1:06:06

It's just a discussion.

Speaker 1: 1:06:06

Yeah, if it happens.

Speaker 1: 1:06:08

Yeah, of course I mean we could talk about having one a week.

Speaker 1: 1:06:11

You know it's just a discussion, but I mean the way that I've always thought about it is is that we have a community of people that are coming from Asia, obviously, in Europe and everywhere else on the planet, and I would think about putting a map up and looking at how many direct flights are coming from the places that most of the Demanders are from, and I'm guessing would be LA, las Vegas, if you're doing the United States, la, las Vegas, atlanta and, and potentially like LaGuardia or one of those like JFK or LaGuardia, or you look at Washington DC, I think like those five and maybe Chicago, like those six places would probably be when you get the most direct flights or the easiest connection to a flight, and I would think that it would have the best, the cheapest flights to Get the most people there.

Speaker 1: 1:07:04

But when you talk about Like, for example, austin is hard to get to for a lot of people, it's challenging, right, because there's not many direct flights and so even if you're living in in New Jersey or something, you still probably got to fly to Dallas or somewhere else and then connect or something like that. So, and that's why, like I went to the one I think you were there a long time ago I went to the conference in Valencia, yeah, and I was the yeah, I was the emcee toast for yeah seven years or something you know and I loved it more.

Speaker 1: 1:07:37

I thought he was such a nice guy. God breathed the soul. What a wonderful man he was. And you know I loved going to that show but it was like so challenging for me to get there. It was just the overnight flight and then you had to land and they had to get a train or you had a flight of Valencia and it was just a really, you know it was tough to get to as an American, you know.

Speaker 2: 1:07:57

About that for years, but it was cheaper and easier for him because he lived there Well yeah, the gold to pack the seats, you know, and he is beautiful place, but I look I get it. It's easier and cheaper for you, but we've been for years. Let's go somewhere else and yeah. I think what did? We go into Madrid or some other place in Spain, I think, and then from there we do with the Hague and we did, we did a bunch of other cities, right, yeah, I'm not surrounded and I thought that was great.

Speaker 2: 1:08:33

And then change the name from from demeaning Spain to demeaning Europe.

Speaker 1: 1:08:38

Yeah. Is there a deck on? Is that no longer? I don't even yeah, so.

Speaker 2: 1:08:44

So, Rolf and I actually sat down with soren and Convinced him to buy it. Okay, so so it got rolled up into names con. Okay, when go, daddy owned it and so it was names con Europe, and which is great for a deep mark, because he had cancer at that point. Yeah, and so so we did a deal and and took over, but but I think since Kobe they haven't done anything.

Speaker 1: 1:09:15

Yeah well, that was just a mess for everybody, yeah, so All right. Well, I think that's enough for today. We're over an hour, so usually try to keep these at about an hour, and if somebody would like you to look at maybe a deck or Invest in some year or potentially make an offer on some of your names or just talk to you, what's the easiest way to get a hold of you? Twitter?

Speaker 2: 1:09:36

I'm on Twitter.

Speaker 1: 1:09:38

I'm on all socials, on all socials, twitter. What's your handle on Twitter? Brady Pollock? There you go.

Speaker 2: 1:09:47

That's an easy one Braden dot ETH.

Speaker 1: 1:09:50

Braden dot ETH. And yeah, there you go. You have two hands. Oh yeah, you've changed it.

Speaker 2: 1:09:54

There you go, that's right. My name is Braden and legal brand marketingcom.

Speaker 1: 1:10:00

There you go, all right. Well, hey, thanks for your time. This is a great conversation. I really enjoyed it and I hope people listening get a better understanding of what goes into investing in companies, what the expectations are those people who do invest. And you know, like that kind of point of view, because I think I Think a lot of people just think it's you know, they look at it and they put the money in and that the expectations, yeah, I might get paid out or whatever and they don't really necessarily understand the process and what really goes into this and it's it's really a lot and it and it takes a special person, you know, to keep up with it and and to do it. So thanks for for enlightening us on that and coming here.

Speaker 2: 1:10:34

You know about the sell-through rate right I have. I have a very good portfolio and my sell-through rate is About 1.6%.

Speaker 1: 1:10:43

So yeah, and then with domains, it's about the same.

Speaker 2: 1:10:49

Yeah, so you know, and a good portfolio looking at 2% sell-through rate. So you know, if you, if you buy 10 domains right, it's gonna take you years to sell one.

Speaker 2: 1:11:02

And in angel investing, you know 70% of those businesses are gonna go out of business entirely and I lose all my money, right, and then some will return and someone get my money back. So I'll make a little bit of a return on my investment and maybe one in a hundred will be a thousand next Makeup for all the others. So you kind of have to look at those percentages. Know what you're getting in into. Because I see people that buy a domain name, I'm like, oh great, I'm gonna sell this five times what I paid for it.

Speaker 2: 1:11:31

Well, yeah maybe, but it could take you a hundred years to do that.

Speaker 1: 1:11:36

Yeah, and I think I think from like a domain broker standpoint, a lot of the times when we work with somebody that owns One name, and it's even a really good one, and they expect to get, you know, a million dollars, two million dollars, you don't know how the market or the companies that you're gonna approach in that industry are going to react to the name. Sometimes, the moment you bring it to market, people like, oh my god, it's finally for sale. We've wanted this name for ten years, how much? And they like find a way. And you know you have another company saying we, you know, we want it, or whatever.

Speaker 1: 1:12:04

And other times you're pushing it, you sign that agreement and you think, alright, as a broker, there's gonna be a line around the corner that wants this, and then it's crickets, you know. And then sometimes those people that own the name are like what, what the fuck? You know, why aren't? Why aren't I getting a ton of offers? Why isn't there? Yeah, right, could be the price, or it's just total, just not interested, like some. Some industries are strange like that and you know, you know, they're no bad.

Speaker 2: 1:12:31

Bad names are just bad prices, right.

Speaker 1: 1:12:34

So I see a lot of bad names.

Speaker 2: 1:12:38

It could be this not worth ten bucks a year, right? I mean, yeah, that's possible too, right. But there is a price, yeah, for everything, and and so I have seen names where it's a fantastic name but two million dollars. It's just not worth it, right. But if it was, it isn't five thousand dollars. It would sell tomorrow.

Speaker 1: 1:12:57

Yeah, so you're gonna find that absolute max in the market and get it if you're willing to take that at that time, and that's it. Yeah, all right. Well, good, that's a great way to end it and I appreciate it. Thank you, he's ran me on, all right.